My friend Carolyn M recommended this book to me, because she said I had so much in common with the protagonist (and with the author). I’m glad she did, because the book is very sweet and took me down some literal memory lanes.
Where the Forest Meets the Stars (2019) is the first novel by Glendy Vanderah. She worked as an endangered bird specialist and apparently attended the same graduate school I did, in Champaign-Urbana, Illinois. This also describes the book’s protagonist, Joanna. That’s where the memory lanes come in. I was taken back to my twenties when I, too, traveled up and down Interstate 57 and wandered Urbana’s “state” streets, admiring the gracefully aging Tudor-style homes of my professors.
Illinois, too, has sunflowers on the roadside, out of the reach of pre-emergent herbicides.
The novel isn’t entirely about driving through east-central Illinois and its endless miles of corn and soybeans, though. There’s a mysterious young girl who claims to be from another galaxy, Indigo Buntings, cancer survival, and (of course) a love interest.
No, this isn’t the greatest novel ever, but it’s an enjoyable read and the plot twists are fun. It was perfect for making a long plane flight feel short! And I have to say I ended up fond of all the characters, both major and minor.
I’m happy to share this book with someone local, but it would cost less to order a used copy than for me to mail it. You might find that the little girl from space provides a nice respite from whatever is burdening your mind, plus you’ll get a glimpse into the place I lived from 1980-1998.
I’m sure there are birds in this state, but I have not been able to put myself into places where birds are. Still, by wandering around the hotel this morning and searching for a neighborhood after work, I found a few, plus a new one, Vaux’s Swift.
Mostly I heard Lesser Goldfinches, Black-capped Chickadees, House Finches, and Crows. Not the plethora I’d hoped for, but I haven’t made it to any nature sights in Oregon and probably won’t since I leave tomorrow and it will be rainy. Oh well! I did see some plants!
This apple tree was bending down from its beautiful crop.
There are wild blackberries everywhere. I guess I’d never go hungry this time of year.
So beautiful and juicy.
I did enjoy looking around at big trees and colorful flowers, though I’m in a noisy area both at work and where I’m staying. Good thing this wasn’t a sight/seeing trip!
A daisyAn elmA mapleA cherry?Shadewort-not nativeVery blue hydrangea
The work part of the day was great, and there was a fun lunch with the people from the company I contract for. They gave us all nice, soft sweatshirts, too. The people part of this visit has been just great. It’s so empowering to work with people who feel like they’re working as a team to make interesting cutting-edge things.
I do need to go home and tell Drew to treat Vicki better, so I’m looking forward to getting on that plane tomorrow afternoon!
Citizens of Beaverton loved my shirt. I hesitate to wear it at home. Well, everyone has their opinions.
Today was hot, but otherwise a fine Sunday. I started the day by listening to birds, as usual. I felt like getting some exercise, so I took the long walk to the cemetery. It looked very spiffy, and the birds were happy with how nice things looked, both there and at the old school/church property.
I found out later that whoever the Walker’s Creek people are will be holding a picnic there next week! Maybe it’s people with plots in the cemetery—they do that at other cemeteries in the area. what a nice tradition.
While I was there I noticed many Black Vultures gathering in two of the grand dead oaks adjacent to the old “town center.”
That’s a big gathering.
I also heard lots of dogs barking and a familiar voice telling them to stop. Were they barking at me or the birds? I went around the corner to Vicki’s house to find out. The answer is that her dogs really don’t like those birds, or they DO and are enjoying themselves. Since I was already there, I paid a visit (so un-hermit-like) and checked out an Australian saddle she’d bought to try to use with Drew.
I also got to see a hummingbird!
And, since I was there, I got to go inside and see extremely cute Sheltie puppies. They are very fluffy and bounce around most charmingly. They are destined for great things, given their lineage.
They are very wiggly and hard to photograph.
I had so much fun being a new stimulus for them. Much tummy rubbing and fur ruffling occurred. I also got to see the brand-new puppy whose mother is a national reserve champion herding dog. There was a lot of dog beauty and skill in that house!
The little black girl was too fast to photograph There were two Merle boys. Click to enlarge!Puppy frenzy
I dragged my self back home for a shower and some rest. I don’t know why I showered, since I was soaked with sweat after working with Apache and dealing with the water trough Spice had managed to overturn. She, Drew, and Mabel seemed mighty pleased to have done that. At least Apache was good. He’s really getting used to the paths in the front field. He likes the Johnson grass and goldenrod and I like the shady areas.
No horse photos today, so here’s a tired Spicebush Swallowtail.
But, I’m out of sequence. Before horse time, Lee and I took one of our random drives, since he hadn’t been exploring all weekend like I had. We saw lots of crops, which we have in this area because we are east of Interstate 35. The soil is completely different on the west side, because the road follows a fault. Fertile farmland to the east, and alkaline karst formations to the west. Anyway, we saw feed corn being harvested, cotton in bloom, and to my surprise, a rice field. It was irrigated by the Brazos River.
We ended up in Calvert, Texas, which is fairly close to Cameron. Lee saw that some of the antique stores there were open, so we stopped by one, which is in the tallest building in the town. The building was erected by the first Black millionaire in this area as headquarters of a benevolent organization. This is probably inaccurate and no doubt a local person can set me straight.
Picture of a woman teaching a little girl to knit.
The shop had lots and lots in it. Luckily there wasn’t much of what I want, but I wished I had a space for this embroidered screen. It’s very cool. I’d love to restore it.
The screen is tall but I just took pictures of the embroidery.
I did end up getting a planter with pansies on it. I’ll show you once I get it set up. I didn’t get these. They had two similar pairs.
The Queen of England and her spouse as bedroom slippers. Classy.
Enough blather about my day. But I investigated many things, ranging from cute to weird!
I’m missing RV travel, I can tell. Anytime I get an offer to go do something, I try to figure out a way to tack on a nature trip. I did that today!
Nature. She is good. Maximillian Sunflower.
I stayed in College Station last night after the dinner with my friends, which provided me with the chance to visit some parks there. After a hotel breakfast with many food labels in Spanish (see, Texas IS bilingual), I walked around behind all the hotels and restaurants to find a nice, older neighborhood that was chock full of Blue Jays. They love urban spaces! I found some wild areas, so my iNaturalist needs were sated.
Common sunflower Horse weed Hackberry Pubescent Gall Midge TievineSlim pickings
I checked out and went to the next place, which I could probably have walked to. It was a small nature preserve in the middle of the nice neighborhood.
Dr David E. Schob Nature Preserve
I noted it had a Texas Master Naturalist sign. The park has seen better days, maintenance-wise, but the paths are still there, and there are good places to sit and look at wildlife. And if you like ragweed, it’s a great time to visit.
Pearl CrescentLittle Yellow
Still, I found some interesting plants and saw lots of birds, including this Greater Roadrunner with its catch.
I decided next to go check out Lick Creek Park, where lots of the outings at the Texas Master Naturalist meeting in October will be hosted. I’m glad I went, since I couldn’t register for the Annual Meeting until today, one day after registration opened, so all the field trips were full.
Park map
Anyway, it was already hot by the time I got to the huge park, so I just did a short loop trail. There was much to see and photograph, plus quite a few summer birds. A Summer Tanager taunted me for at least ten minutes hopping from tree to tree, but hiding. I certainly knew it was there!
Little Yellow on Rose PavoniaBeautiful beauty berriesBird blindPepperdineBluestem along pathPartridge peaBeautiful oakWeird Mockingbird on the ground. Hope it was ok. Gulf Fritillary on Turk’s cap
I made my way home full of nature and happiness, only to spend the rest of the day enjoying nature at home. Beautiful clouds came in bearing very welcome rain, which was pleasant to observe from the shelter of the porch. Lee and I read, looked at birds, and relaxed for quite a while!
Big ole clouds! We got .33” of rain It’d flock heading to a tree. Zooming All in the treeOur viewpoint.
This all constituted a fine day in which I had no complaints. Well, I didn’t get to ride horses. Maybe tomorrow!
Lee got these pictures of the Mockingbird babies in our small tree. They look great!
This morning, Lee and I awoke in Brownwood, Texas, which was not in yesterday’s non-plan. After a reasonable hotel breakfast we went less than .1 mile to the Tractor Supply in the same parking lot as us. Odd, huh.
Proof I made it home: Indian Jute from the ranch.
I got all the horse food I needed and the cashier informed me there was a bunch of chicken stuff on sale, so I got some herbal yummies to go with the grit Connie has been hinting for. How efficient!
I had been wanting to go back to the state park nearby, so Lee looked up Lake Brownwood State Park. He was directed a half mile down the road the hotel and TSC. That was not where I remembered the park to be, either unit. I kept saying we weren’t going to the right place.
The weird shape is our hotel. The nature trail starts where the road ends. Also on the map is my favorite restaurant, which we didn’t get to go to, Katana.
It wasn’t where I thought we were going, that’s true. But we were in Riverside Park, which may be the nicest city park I’ve ever been to. I ended up thanking Lee.
Nice entrance with native plants
Even though I still had the wrong shoes on, I was able to happily walk the sidewalks that went along a pretty bayou (Pecan Bayou) and an adjacent woods. The park has a nice disc golf course, a beautiful playground and a cool meeting pavilion. It looks quite new, but is full of old trees, mostly pecan.
Park views
I enjoyed walking the paths, other than when disc golf players yelled at me. The other interesting sight was a family who brought a confused but patient palomino horse to the park and posed their children with it. Everyone had cowboy attire, the fancy kind.
Horse photos. I assume they scooped any poop.
I found many plants, including a new one for me. There were 24 bird species in total that Merlin heard, including a loud Mississippi Kite and many Lesser Goldfinches. Here are a few plants and an insect in the park (not bad for such a well mowed area).
Gregg’s tube tongueOr Justicia pilosellaVitex, in a flower bedDesert willow in a flower bedFrog fruitDandelion Chicory of some kindShaggy portulacaPecan set in a firmer tree branchBlue-fronted Dancer
As I finished the walk by the bayou I saw a nature trail sign. It said it was only .7 miles, so I let Lee know I was going down it.
Ooh!
What a gorgeous trail it was, winding along the water. While enjoying the birds, I realized my two favorite vines were everywhere, Pitcher’s leather flower and pearl milkweed. I was excited.
Leather flower seed pods are coolFlower and pod The precious pearl milkvineTwo beautiful vines.
There was so much more to see. And the trail itself made you feel totally alone in nature. Just perfect.
Trail views
I saw too many fascinating plants to share, but here are some highlights. This is probably mostly for me so I can go back and enjoy them, though I did put them all up in iNaturalist!
We headed home after this, and just enjoyed the countryside. I also enjoyed a mango-pineapple Icee. What a spontaneous indulgence.
We had a brief but intense storm with lightning while I was feeding horses, which produced thunder loud enough to scare both humans and equines. It did lead to a beautiful sunset, so I’ll share those!
Oh yes. Card of the day was 5 of Wands, which deals with conflict. I chuckled because I drew it after thinking for a few minutes about an interpersonal conflict I need to resolve. Thanks, cards.
I didn’t write yesterday, even though it was a good day, all in all. I felt useful at work and had a good time doing horse stuff with Vicki (other than getting stepped on by Apache when he was in a “spooky” part of his path). Walking on the paths was a great way for Vicki to practice leadership with Drew, so I’m glad we did it, even though Drew wasn’t thrilled.
Laughing because we were trying to get Drew to look cheerful.
Today I had no plans, Lee had a sore toe, and we were just blah. So, he said, “Let’s just go!” And we spontaneously went somewhere. Spontaining has a lot going for it! We drove around Texas to see what we could find.
One thing we found: free-range cattle. That’s Texas.
First we drove to Buc-ees because I really wanted one of their sandwiches for lunch. I also got over-priced watermelon but it was so good! I got a new large water holder to replace the previous one whose straw disappeared then the lid shattered in one of my more-frequent “accidents.” I’m pleased.
It has a horse and flowers on it. Good.
Then we meandered our way through the dangerous roads between Temple and Copperas Cove, Texas. You are inevitably passed on all sides by small, audibly-enhanced sporty vehicles driven by young people with very neat haircuts. Those would be folks starting their military careers at Fort Cavazos who have purchased their dream vehicles and want to go zoom zoom. We survived and made it to our random destination, a “metaphysical shop.” There are actually TWO in the area, down from three.
My souvenir was a cutting of a fascinating pothos plant with curly leaves. The shop owner has a jungle in the back of the store.
This store has all kinds of fascinating stuff in it, like dead things in jars, homemade spell candles, and what I think were some homemade oils. This was not one of those goofy crystal stores. They are serious and have some interesting classes one could take. I liked their tarot candles, so I got one for me and a Hermit for Lee. Lee gave me a VERY nice Bridget goddess statue to go with my collection. This makes me sound very woo woo. I assure you, I’m just out here sending Lovingkindness.
This avatar sucks.
After chatting about dogs, horses, and plants with the proprietor, we headed for our next destination, which we picked at random. Mostly we enjoyed the drive through rolling hills and (recently flooded) river valleys. We ended up in Lampassas. We tried to go to a nature park, but it was closed. That was a theme for the day, thanks to the floods on July 4.
The clouds were cool all day.
My big discovery in Lampassas was a huge factory that makes Ajinomoto. That’s MSG. I always thought it came from Japan. I stayed clear due to my sensitivity.
I see.
We saw a sign for Colorado Bend State Park, so we decided to go there and check it off our list. It’s a good thing, since it turns out our RV would have no place to go there.
Flood-damaged bridge to get to the park. Had to drive very slowly.
Much of the park was closed, but I did get to go on a little trail walk in a meadow with Ashe Juniper trees and lots of silver bluestem. I was hampered by my footwear choice of shiny sandals, but remember, I didn’t know where I was going earlier today.
My dumb shoes. The scenery on the trail. Pale YuccaCommon Checkered SkimmerSome kind of bee assassin bugThere were still a few clasping coneflowers.
The weird thing about my walk was the eerie lack of birds. For most of the time there was one persistent Field Sparrow, who sang very well, it all alone. At the end I finally heard a Bobwhite Quail, a Cardinal, and a Red-winged Blackbird.
It was so quiet. Even Lee noticed.
We then drove to the camping area, which was the only riverside area you could get to, and there were normal birds there in usual numbers. Whew. I’ve never been so relieved to hear wrens, titmice, and buntings.
Ridge above the Texas Colorado River Not a honey bee! It’s a northern plushback, whatever that is Pecan treeGlimpse of the River.
We left the park and for no good reason drove to San Saba, another typical town of the region. I enjoy the town squares and small shops you find. The big business here is pecans. Some of the pecan businesses have beautiful buildings. Of course, a pecan plantation is also lovely. Wish I had a photo.
The nearest place we could find to get a free hotel on our Hilton points was in Brownwood, so off we went through more scenic byways until we suddenly were there, not the way we came here last time when camping. The best thing about this Home2 Suites is that it’s next door to a Tractor Supply store, where I need to go to replenish horse food.
Hotel sunset, looking away from TSC.
It’s almost like we planned the day!
A good day needs no plan when you can spontane.
Tomorrow we get those supplies then see if this is the town with the amazing Japanese restaurant that used to be Pizza Hut. If so, that will be lunch before hitting a different bunch of Texas cow-towns on the way home.
Crude map of trip. We live due east of Temple 40 miles or so.
Tarot card of the day
Yesterday I drew the 6 of swords, which is about having a supportive community. I drew it right after chatting with my supportive Friday morning friends. I forgot to take a picture.
I didn’t draw a card today, but was impressed to see that the woman in the metaphysical shop was doing a good business with readings. Interesting!
Yesterday I worked ten hours and had eight meetings, nearly all of which were challenging and some of which were stressful. Yow. I was truly wiped out at the end of the day, but managed stay online another half hour for my tarot group. My ears hurt from wearing headphones all day!
I wished I was on the porch with all the new pillows and cushions.
It has taken me all day today to recover from yesterday. Luckily today I had some nice writing to do, and lunch to enjoy, which helped. And a friend dropped by after work, which was a good surprise.
Drew and I felt similarly yesterday afternoon.
Never fear, I’m still loving my consulting job and the people I’m working with, but it’s a real job so of course there are challenges! I’m just disappointed that I didn’t recover as quickly as I’d like to have. It makes me feel my age. Ugh. I’ll have to figure out a way to ration my energy better. I want to contribute!
This is my bucolic photo of behind the house for Robert.
I spent as much time today as I could meditating and planning how to care for my energy and brain so I can be productive.
See how perky I looked with my official iNaturalist shirt and cicada earrings?
Naturally, hanging out with birds helped me clear my mind. There were so many today, which was great fun. Red-eyed Vireos were everywhere making their weird sounds, as were Great Crested Flycatchers, and not fake Mockingbird ones, either. Just identifying what was flying while I was floating in the pool around sunset was enough to bring me back to my center.
This bird sighting made me chuckle. The Great Egret looks fascinated by the cow’s rear.
I’m sure glad I live here in the peace and quiet (mostly; tonight they’re harvesting Milo or something across the road, which entails big machines, shiny lights, and hubbub.) That’s just once or twice a year, though.
Carlton would like me to go to sleep! Okay!
Tarot cards of the day
Yesterday my card was the Teacher or Hierophant. I like this image of a wise person learning in different ways. It’s better than the mean institutional guy in Robin Wood. Plus it has a Great Blue Heron!
The card was a great choice, since the spread my tarot friends and I did last night was about messengers and the lessons they had for us. I was encouraged to keep going in my new endeavors. Also I had to laugh when I drew the 3 of Cups as one of the messages, because it had happy, playful otters on it!
Today’s card was The Sun, which I forgot to photograph. It’s very summery and happy in the Gaian deck. To me it felt like celebrating that I am handling what comes my way with positivity, even through some painful times of change.
This is Benebell Wen’s image. I’ll replace it tomorrow when I go downstairs.
Those of us in and around Milam County, Texas know there are more native mammals out in our area besides deer, cottontails, raccoons, opossums, and armadillos. But many aren’t easy to spot. I’ve never seen a porcupine, for example, but I know they’re out there. Occasionally we will spot coyotes, bobcats, or (very rarely) mountain lions. The most fun mammals we look for, though, are beavers and river otters.
A likely sighting site, Walker’s Creek bridge on County Road 140, featuring: flood debris.
This morning I was doing my daily walk to the bridge and back, dreading the inevitable scattering of annoyed vultures (today both Black and Turkey) who have been patiently working on what appeared to be a deceased Holstein steer, which must have come a long way, since we have no Holstein cattle nearby. Cow mercifully not shown.
Zoom in. There are many vultures.
Sure enough, I scared the giant birds off. Then I noticed a head larger than that of a turtle or snake in the creek. Ooh! A mammal! I was instantly ready to snap a photo, figuring it would see me and exit.
Aha!
Sure enough, something brown and wet was exiting. Was it a beaver or an otter? I was ready to verify by checking its tail.
Looks skinny.
Yay! It was a river otter! How fortunate I was to see this water mammal! I’ve seen two swimming together here a few years ago, and one crossing our field after a big rain. That was very cute.
100% otter.
I didn’t take too many more photos, because I was enjoying the moment. But I was very happy to finally document one on iNaturalist!
Getting the heck away from me.
River otters are also called common otters (Lontra canadensis). As their scientific name suggests, they are found all over North America, except for a swath of territory in the center of the country.
Hmm.
They love to eat fish, crayfish, and turtles, but will also eat other small animals. They aren’t a danger unless you own a fish farm, which would lead to happy otters. River otters also love to play, which makes them very popular in zoos.
Not playing, getting away!
I’m glad we still have some otters here in Milam County, because they’re a sign of healthy waterways. I guess Walker’s Creek is pretty good other than pooping and dying cattle.
I’m still looking for a beaver, though I’ve seen evidence at a fellow Master Naturalist’s property nearby.
Bonus observations:
I saw a Northern Cardinal eating away at the berries of a nettle-leaf noseburn vine. more fell to the ground than went in.
Yesterday I was swimming when I saw a small bird bathing in the shallow “beach” end of our pool. I figure it was a House Sparrow, but her breast was yellowish. Then she shook her wings. She was a Painted Bunting! I’d never seen one at the pool before!
Also yesterday I heard a Summer Tanager, and something chirped back. It was the female, for once not hiding. I’m always impressed with myself if I can ID a female bird of a species with drab females.
Nettleleaf noseburn Tragia urticifolia – photo by Sue Ann KendallFemale Painted Bunting Passerina ciris – photo by Lloyd Davis Female Summer Tanager Piranga Rubra – photo by Don Danko
Tarot Card of the Day
Today I drew a great card for the topic of this blog, the Child of Air (page of Swords). It’s about having the enthusiasm of a curious child who is in awe of nature and the world around them. In the Gaian deck, she is entranced by butterflies, an air allusion.
I bet she’d have been as excited as I was about encountering an otter in the wild!
Today I started what I hope will be my last full-time job ever (I did say that about my previous job that ended so oddly). Today was so encouraging that I keep wanting to tell someone, but I’ve already told my whole family, so it’s your turn, reader-folk. My new job started off splendidly.
I got to look at birds, too.
Even the civilized 11am start time made me happy. No more 7am meetings for me! Pacific Time is nice. I’ll occasionally have a rather late meeting, but I’ll probably work 9:30-5:30, which is very nice. I’ll be able to have morning time to do things that require concentration. Great.
I’m hoppy for Suna.
I met two coworkers today, and I enjoyed their positive attitudes, their eagerness to get my input, and their openness. The company seems to have a very open and honest culture. I’ll even know what products they’re making! I think we can get good things done and end up with productive and organized teams and projects. I’m stoked. (I love this initial part of any job where it’s all possibilities and few roadblocks.)
I’m aware stuff will come up.
The company culture is refreshing and positive. They will even let me participate in their Employee Resource Groups. I’ll enjoy making contributions in this new place for the next few months! Let’s see what tomorrow brings when I start going to meetings. And when my laptop arrives so I can use my new email address and access the SharePoint site. Whee!
Oh how I’ve missed a work laptop. photo from Pexels.
Other good news? Look at these precious babies! They’re growing! Soon we can shut the porch door!
Five cuties.
And my son made good progress laying out the floor on the screened porch using what was leftover from building our house. I’m glad we kept it safe all this time! We don’t have quite enough for the whole floor, so tomorrow we’re going to pick out a border tile. I hope we can find something that goes well with this natural stone that’s also on sale.
That’s NICE.
We’ll see. Being so optimistic feels good but weird!
I hope something positive happened to you today. We all need it.
I’m taking a break from Facebook, since the fallout on a post I thought was not too controversial turned out to incite strong partisan feelings among my friends. I respect their rights to debate, and find areas of agreement with each, but I’m so damned hypersensitive that I had to take a break. I also snoozed a few very nice people for a while. So, I’m no longer listening to the fallout until I’m up to it again. I do want to hear all views, but I also want to remain mentally stable.
But I can still blog and write on my Substack, which is where I rant. I’ve been trying to listen to birdsong my porch or birding slab, but I’m thwarted. There is an incessant throbbing sound echoing through the trees. It fills most of the spectrogram on Merlin Bird ID.
The faint rhythmic lines are a Cardinal.
It’s cicadas. I can hardly hear myself think for them. Once they start up around 9 am, they’re in all the trees every minute unless it rains. My best birding the past couple of days has been right after a storm, when birds have a feeding frenzy thanks to flying insects, and I guess the cicadas need to dry off.
Annoying. Photo from Pexels.
Only the loudest and closest birds pierce through the wall of cicada sound. I do get a lot of House Sparrow chirps. That’s because their nest is above me (to the right; I’m not putting chairs under their extra-decorative nests.
Mrs Sparrow, who alternates with Mr Sparrow in insect deliveries.
These mofos are everywhere. When not feeding, they’re sitting around pooping on our outdoor furniture, grills (which are covered), etc. They’re not native, so we could dispose of them, but nope. I just make sure they stay out of the new screened porch.
Grr.
Speaking of our lovely new porch, the Barn Swallow eggs haven’t even hatched yet, so who knows when we will be able to shut the door. Sometimes I wish I wasn’t quite so dang law abiding and could remove the nests.
Photo yesterday by Lee.
I do have a bit better luck with birds on my walks, where there are some areas a bit farther from the cicadas. Plus, there are always good old eyeballs for spotting birds! Yesterday I found a Mississippi Kite and today a Green Heron.
Blurry, but I could tell what it was from colors and call. This guy didn’t have to say anything. I know a Green Heron!
So, between traipsing through mud to tend to horses and listening to birds, my last free week before my consulting gig starts is full. I also keep crocheting, and now April and May are connected on my temperature blanket, and June is caught up. The nice KnitPicks lady said that if I do not get yarn by ten working days to call them rather than patiently waiting a month like I did. I am now warned.
April and May. Getting warmer.
I’ll leave you with bugs and flowers. Please send healing thoughts to everyone who’s affected by world events, and listen hard, even when it’s difficult to hear.
Maize calligrapher waspLighted furrow beeVelvet ant? Not sure.